Episode Highlights:
- A Conversation that Started on LinkedIn
- I posted that “informational interviews are underrated”. Luki countered saying they can be overrated and should be rebranded as “curiosity conversations.”
- This online debate inspired us to share our differing experiences and come up with advice.
- A Tool that Got Me Six Promotions
- I attribute coffee chats for my biggest career moves – they helped me land six promotions. But I learned the hard way how to have good ones!
- How to Request a Meeting
- Share your situation and specific question you have for them. Suggest a short meeting like 15-20 minutes. Provide a calendar link to make scheduling easy.
- Best Practices for the Conversation
- Prepare questions ahead of time, but keep it a flowing chat rather than an interrogation.
- Set and respect the time expectation. Mention when time is almost up.
- End with next steps like another meeting or you providing value in the future.
Key Takeaways:
- Coffee chats can be valuable, but focus on learning about the person instead of direct career help. Mutual value matters most.
- Framing meetings as “curiosity conversations” sets a collaborative tone from the start.
- Practice coffee chat skills whenever you can. Use reflections and tools to keep improving.
- Conclusion: Overall, we agree coffee meetings are great ways to build meaningful connections, though the approach matters. Try our tips to get better at networking through information conversations!
Where to find Luki
Where to find Miguel
Referenced
- Linkedin Post that sparked this conversation
- Luki’s podcast “Stuff I Wish I Knew Earlier”
- Harvey MacKay’s book “Dig Your Well Before You’re Thirsty”
- Elevate your 2.0 Podcast experience with Fountain.FM App
In this episode, we cover:
- 00:00 – Introduction to the podcast episode and request for reviews
- 01:46 – Debate on whether informational interviews are essential or overrated
- 02:16 – Why we value informational interviews
- 04:03 – Luki’s perspective on rebranding them as “curiosity conversations”
- 08:08 – How to request an informational interview/coffee chat
- 09:50 – Preparing questions and personalizing informational interviews
- 12:07 – Setting expectations on time and follow-ups
- 14:08 – Providing mutual value beyond career advice
- 16:26 – Best practices for conducting informational interviews
- 18:17 – How to prepare for and follow up after informational interviews
- 22:08 – Using tools like AI and CRMs to assist with informational interviews
- 24:58 – Recap and concluding thoughts
- 25:37 – Going beyond professional context to provide value
- 27:17 – Having informal “curiosity conversations”
- 29:00 – Final tips for better informational interviews
- 33:52 – Recap and closing
AI-generated Transcript (Click here)
00:00
Miguel Abascal
Welcome to another episode of Newcomers on Fire. Now we are at 2.0 podcast. To truly enjoy the full 2.0 podcast experience, we recommend downloading the Fountain FM app at the end of the show. I will walk you through on how to do this because we have some pretty cool rewards for you. Before we dive into today’s discussion, I have a quick request. If you have been enjoying our show and finding value in the stories and advice we share, please consider supporting the show by leaving us a review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Your feedback means the world to us and it helps us better serve you. So drop us a review and let us know what you love the most about this episode.
00:41
Miguel Abascal
Doing this also help other newcomers discover our podcast, making it a valuable resource for more people on their journey to making their dreams a reality. Thank you for being a part of our community and for your continued support. We got a special episode today. I collaborate with Luki, who is also the podcast host of Swyke, a stuff I wish earlier, and we have a debate on informational interviews. Are they essential or overrated for career growth? For me, I can tell you that it has helped me to land six job promotions. Loki agrees that they are important, but that we should also rebrand them as curiosity conversations. In this collaboration episode, you will learn the best practices for requesting and conducting informational interviews, discover how to prepare personalized questions, set expectations on time, and follow up with genuine appreciation.
01:31
Miguel Abascal
We will also discuss ways to provide mutual value beyond just asking for career advice. Whether you are new to networking or looking to improve, this episode has tangible tips to help you build meaningful connections through informational meetings.
01:46
Intro/Outro
Welcome to the Newcomers on Fire show with your host, Miguel Abascal. Listen to people like you sharing their journeys, struggles and their breakthroughs. Be ready to be inspired to take control of your time, career, finances, and future. Fulfill your potential. Become the person you’re meant to be and make your dreams a reality.
02:16
Luki Danukarjanto
We are here on a special episode because we’re doing a collaboration with the newcomers on Fire podcast with the host, Miguel Abascal. How are you doing today, Miguel?
02:27
Miguel Abascal
I’m doing great, Luki. I’m super happy to be here again.
02:31
Luki Danukarjanto
Sounds good. And we thought we’d jump on because both of us have podcasts and were having an online discussion on LinkedIn about informational interviews. So Miguel had put a post in regards to it’s important. And I kind of snuck in there and said, well, informational interviews are overrated and I like to call them curiosity conversations. And then it went back and forth. Well, it wasn’t a very heated debate because we all actually agree on it. But sometimes semantics and words matter. So we thought we’d get on a podcast to chat a little bit about what they are, how to even do them, why they’re important, and things like that. So, Miguel, why don’t you start by maybe talking a little bit about your post and maybe some of your experiences with informational interviews. Yeah.
03:15
Miguel Abascal
So let me start with something just to explain why I’m thinking on information service as the tool to get you the job. For my last six promotions, I landed those jobs just over coffee meetings, which I call them, also information interviews. Since then, I’m super happy and I’ve been telling everybody, you should do them and there is a way to do them properly. So that’s why I posted on LinkedIn and say, you know what, information interviews are underrated. And then you say, like, well, you know what? It could be overrated. And were discussing more about that. But the reason I say are underrated is because people, I don’t see them using them as they should. So let me tell you my story about how I found about them, and then we can go over there, because I do agree.
04:03
Miguel Abascal
Information interviews, the definition or the word or the semantics, it’s a little bit confusing, especially for me that English is not my first language. But I remember a conversation I had with a mentor, and this mentor told me, miguel, I think you should go and do some information interviews just to find more about the industry, about the job, about what you do. And I was like, okay, and what are those information interviews? Oh, you know what they are.
04:29
Luki Danukarjanto
Like some coffee meetings.
04:31
Miguel Abascal
Just go on a coffee meeting and ask questions about your industry. It’s like, okay, so is that a thing, to invite somebody on a coffee date and ask information about a profession, about a job? It’s like, oh, yeah, totally. Everybody does them and everybody’s happy to help you out.
04:49
Luki Danukarjanto
Okay.
04:49
Miguel Abascal
So of course, with little experience, I invited a couple of people to say like, hey, you know what? I would like to have an information interview with you. And some people were like, what? It’s like, yeah, I just want to ask you questions about your job.
05:05
Luki Danukarjanto
Like, oh, okay.
05:06
Miguel Abascal
And then of course, the first time I did them, I remember I was completely nervous. I was like, I don’t know what I need to do. And of course I started asking questions. It’s like, okay. And I felt like a robot, to be honest. I was like, okay, how long have you been in the job? Did you like your job? What is your career experience? Super weird. That person just saw me and it’s like, okay, what happened? And I was like, okay, this information interview thing, I don’t think it works. So of course I start asking more questions about how to do them properly, what to say, how to prepare for them and how to prepare the conversation. And everything changed since then. But I agree with you, Lakim. The name information interview is a little bit misleading because it’s actually just a conversation.
05:55
Miguel Abascal
It’s just a coffee meeting. I do not know everything about what you are doing. Or sometimes I just want to know a little bit more about a specific industry or a job description or whatever it is. And just having a conversation, I guess, makes the whole difference. And I think that’s where we agree. And then you call them curiosity conversations and it’s like, yeah, it’s exactly the same thing. I call them coffee chats because it’s easy.
06:24
Luki Danukarjanto
Yes, and I would agree with that. And I think it is that concept, informational interviews, people think, well, one, it’s to get a job, right? Because it’s an interview, right? And that’s not necessarily great. And also interviews, as you experienced, it seemed like more of an interrogation. It’s just question. That is okay, but it’s not necessarily the best way to build a relationship. Which is why I like to rebrand them as curiosity conversations. Coffee chats are great as well because it just shows like it’s a chat, we’re talking. It’s two ways, right? There’s information exchange, informational interview seems like it’s one way, right? So that were some of the premise, but definitely I probably posted that more to get a reaction out of folks to see like, what are you talking about? It’s overrated. Everybody’s telling me to do them.
07:13
Luki Danukarjanto
So I do definitely recognize their importance in terms of concept. But the branding and semantics, it might be semantics, but words are important. Just like I say, where people say networking is so important, I say networking is overrated. Instead, build meaningful connections. Because the whole networking, it has a branding problem where it’s like the sleazy salesperson trying to sell a car or whatever, right? Versus no. Connect with this person. Have a conversation. Chats try to add value so the words themselves often can help. But you’re right, the premise is super important. Basically, build relationships is really what you’re trying to do at the heart of it. Learn from others who have been on that journey ahead of you. That is probably the most important part. And because it’s a two way street, see how you can help and add value to that 100%.
08:08
Luki Danukarjanto
And I’m often doing them all the time where I’m lucky, where my wife actually is a teacher and she gets a lot of Starbucks gift cards and she doesn’t go to Starbucks, so she ends up giving me a lot. So I actually fund a lot of the coffee chats through, I guess, her students.
08:27
Miguel Abascal
But anyway, I love that.
08:33
Luki Danukarjanto
I think we all agree on both agree that they are super important. So I love if you share a little bit about, like, well, how do you ask? So I met someone and they might be a good person to connect with, or I haven’t yet met them. Do I do it before? After. What is your process? Or what are your thoughts on starting an international interview, coffee chat, curiosity conversation, whatever it is. How do you ask for one?
08:59
Miguel Abascal
That’s a great question. And you’re right. Everybody says you should do networking, but they don’t explain how. I discovered that through informational interviews or coffee chats is the best way to build a relationship, because then you get to know that person a little bit more. And by knowing them now, you can provide value. And that’s my premise at everything. If you provide value, everybody wants to hang around with people that are generous and provides value. How do I ask for them? First of all, I identify what kind of problem or what kind of solution I’m looking for. For example, at some point I was between, should I stay at TD bank? Should I move to a Scotiabank, for example? That was a real question I had. And I look into my network and see, okay, who has done that transition?
09:50
Miguel Abascal
And then what I did, people that are connected directly to me on LinkedIn or people maybe two or three degrees of separation, and I just reach out. It’s like, hey, I noticed that you were here actually almost at the same time, and now you moved to a different company. How you did it. Do you mind if we can spend 1520 minutes, virtual meetings, in person meetings, just to discuss more about that? Because it’s very clear, very specific, and it’s kind of like time bound in a way that is short. A lot of people say like, yeah, for sure, we can talk more about that. One of the things I recommend is that if you have a link to your calendar availability, like a calendar, it’s very easy.
10:39
Miguel Abascal
Instead of just going back and forth of like, okay, can you do this week, next week and so on. But that’s one way, just on a very specific situation. If I just want to connect, to grow and learn a new topic. For example, I wanted to learn about beekeeping.
11:00
Luki Danukarjanto
Okay.
11:02
Miguel Abascal
I was exactly the same way. It’s like, hey, I noticed that you have been a beekeeper for this many years. I am just starting. Do you mind spending 15 minutes with me just to guide me into the right direction of whether you wish you knew early. And some of the questions, I just put them on a very short email or LinkedIn message. And I will say, like, eight out of ten people will reply yes, for sure. Some people will ignore it, but, well, that’s life.
11:33
Luki Danukarjanto
Yeah, for sure. I like what you said about keeping it specific and keeping it time bound, right? Because most people have 15 minutes now, if you’re asking for half an hour, it’s a little bit more challenging. And now with everybody on virtual zoom and things like that, it’s even easier because it used to be, well, I have to allocate time to go down and get a coffee and meet you in the right place. Right. But now it’s just like, click a link, you’re up and then you’re down. So I think that’s great. The reason why I like the term curiosity conversation is kind of what you said. What are you interested about in this person?
12:07
Luki Danukarjanto
And if you do it based on the person and their journey or advice or whatever, versus on the fact that they actually work at a job and you think they can get you a referral or something, that kind of taints the intent of it. Right. So if you go in with the intent of I’m connecting with this person to get a job, to get a referral, get them to review my resume, that often doesn’t work out well, it happens. Right. And it can be somewhat useful. But I usually tell people that when you want to know whether you’re networking correctly, you put it in the context of dating. Right. So in that context, you’re basically asking this person for a one night stand versus, come on, let’s go on a.
12:53
Miguel Abascal
Couple of dates and see.
12:54
Luki Danukarjanto
We might not get married, but at least the possibility is there, because if you think about it, jobs are kind of like professional marriages, so there needs to be some compatibility in there. So a lot of what you said about the curiosity, interest, asking for advice, preparing is a lot of great things that you need to do and make it specific. Don’t go in and saying, so what do you do for your life? Tell me about your career journey. Well, it’s on their LinkedIn profile. It’s all out there. Do a bit of research, and a very useful thing that I recommend folks to have is basically in preparation for the discussion. I. And then if you start things like that, it just basically makes for a better coffee chat, curiosity conversation, informational interview or whatever you have.
13:40
Luki Danukarjanto
So I think that’s a lot of great advice that you shared. Any other things that you’d want to add in terms of having folks better at requesting and asking and also understanding that, as you said, not everybody will say, yes, there will be some people that ignore you. That’s okay. And just be appreciative of that. But what are the thoughts or things that spark based on your experience with informational interviews?
14:08
Miguel Abascal
I love your example about saving. You know what, I’m a banker. I have a financial background. But I see that also as if somebody asks you for money, it’s like, hey, you just met me. Would you give me $10,000? And it’s like, I don’t think so. But if it was my sister, my brother, if it was my best friend and they are in need, it’s like, okay, let’s go to the ATM or let’s figure out something. Right. It’s just that intention of helping and that trust factor of like, okay, I know I’m going to help my friend. So how do you build that? And you build that through multiple meetings and also through something that you have in common with that person. That is why I love to do things isotope work.
14:58
Miguel Abascal
For example, going to church or going to specific activities where you meet people in their element so you can talk about what they love. And once you have that no like and trust factor built up, hey, everything is easy because if I build a relationship with somebody that is a person, a beekeeper, again, an example of a beekeeper and we hit it off and we’re super friends now, guess what? That beekeeper is connected with so many different people. In fact, the beekeeper that I connected with, he was an ex prize waterhouse Cooper consultant. So immediately his network was to my disposal if I need it. So that’s one example of how to do it.
15:41
Miguel Abascal
So what I learned through the years of trial and error and making them several, I think I have hundreds of, probably even a thousand coffee meetings already because I just try and try again how to do them better. One of the recommendations I can share with you, Lucky, and also I have some questions for you, is preparation. Preparation is super important. So if you have a 20 minutes meeting with somebody, you should be preparing probably like an hour or two in terms of how are you going to talk about what is going to be the icebreaker, what is going to be the first conversation that you are going to start quick recommendation that I learned over the years is, do not talk about the weather. Not everybody likes the weather.
16:26
Miguel Abascal
If it’s too hot, if it’s too cold, don’t talk about commuting or how else you’re driving this morning, because everybody, they don’t like it. I learned to ask questions about, hey, what is new and exciting? Or what is the thing that makes you the happiest, the most proud, or last week or something. So once you start with a positive icebreaker, then I set up the agenda. It’s like, thank you so much for meeting with me. If I was referred by somebody, it’s like, hey, Lucky told me to meet with you because you’re incredible and lucky is incredible. And then we just build that connection again and setting up a little bit of the agenda why you are meeting that person and how that information is going to be important. And then it’s like, introduce yourself.
17:15
Miguel Abascal
A very short, quick elevator pitch about, okay, who are you, why you are here, where are you going, and why this meeting is going to help you to make the next decision. Because something that you said is, if you’re asking for a coffee meeting to get something in return, it’s not going to work out. But if you ask for a coffee meeting to ask for advice, to ask for guidance, then, yeah, people are happy to provide advice and guidance. So once that intro is done, which takes probably five minutes at most, then you just jump into some of the questions. It’s like, hey, I’ve been in this situation. I saw that you were in a similar situation where you were deciding to go to the left or to the right.
17:58
Miguel Abascal
Can you please explain a little bit more about what you did and so on? And then I just have the other person share the experiences and ask about their challenges, their achievements. And the closing is super important, because before we jump into the closing, I had a question for you, Loki. How did you ask and how did you prepare for the most?
18:17
Luki Danukarjanto
Yeah, so a lot of it is doing research, right? Because some people have very well written, very extensive LinkedIn profiles. Some of them have nothing. You do your best based on what’s there. I often like to make sure that the questions are provided ahead of time so that they know that I’m respectful there at the time. And these are the ten to twelve questions that I’m going to ask or what have you. So that’s definitely one thing that I do. I like your icebreaker, the positive spin on it, because, yeah, I mean, the commute, the weather, people always complain about stuff. You don’t want to start a new conversation with complaints. Right. I actually recommend folks to also set a timer. Right.
19:05
Luki Danukarjanto
So if you actually ask for 15 minutes, you better have a timer for, like, 13 minutes so that you give, like, two minutes to close off and just let them know that you are respectful of their time. Now, many folks will actually allow the conversation to go longer, right. If it’s going well, and they appreciate it. But some folks, especially senior execs, they’re bound to their calendar. And you give them 15 minutes, you have 15 minutes. You don’t have 25. And if you do, you’re making them late for their SVP meeting or the treasure meeting or whatever it is, and you don’t want to necessarily be responsible for that. And showcasing that respect is there. Yeah. So conversations. And then what I like to do is actually, earlier in my career, I would practice with friends. Right.
19:50
Luki Danukarjanto
Not those specific questions, but I was quite awkward when I first networked. I wasn’t comfortable. I was a shy introvert. So what I did was talk to classmates or coworkers or people that I didn’t really know. Like, I know them, but I don’t know them. And I use that to work out the kinks in terms of how to ease into how to navigate a conversation, how to switch to a different question or what have you. So a lot of the preparation was nothing even related to this particular interventional interview, the coffee chat. It was before just general networking. And then for me, one of the big pieces was, you talk about preparation. I also encourage folks to do postparation, which is not the pre part, but the after. And once the conversation is done, what did you do?
20:42
Luki Danukarjanto
Well, what could you do better so that you can take both of them and do it in the next conversation. So, in that preparation, having chats with the people, I sort of don’t know, but it’s not high stakes because they’re not like a future boss, senior manager, decision maker. I constantly improve so that when I get to the point where there is this kind of high stakes, so to speak conversation, I’m a lot more comfortable and have worked out the kinks. Right. So I think that’s how I prepare. And obviously, there’s the semantic things, like, make sure you send a calendar invite, because I know so many students out there that they agree with a professional that. Okay, yeah. We’re meeting Friday at 02:00 p.m. Then Friday at 02:00 p.m. Comes and they’re not there. They don’t show up. Why?
21:29
Luki Danukarjanto
Because, well, again, a lot of senior people, they live off their calendar and if it’s not on their calendar, it doesn’t exist. So send them a calendar invite, put all the information I’ve also been subject to in person where sometimes you say, okay, we’ll meet at the Starbucks at this and this. So I think there was one at young and King and there’s like two or three Starbucks. You need to make sure it’s the right one and all that sort of stuff. So I usually folks for, can I get your phone number if I’m meeting in person, just in case, if we need a text, because that has saved me a bunch of times because, oh, I’m at the one across the street or the one at the mezzanine level instead of the underground level or whatever.
22:08
Luki Danukarjanto
So that’s, but that’s some logistical stuff that I’ll have people consider when they’re looking for coffee chats, informational interviews and stuff like that. What are your thoughts about that?
22:20
Miguel Abascal
And they’re very important. They’re quite simple. But sometimes that takes out ten minutes of a conversation because you’re trying to find your partner or the other person in terms of also preparations. Sometimes people ask me, it’s like, hey, I don’t know what questions to ask. And something that I’ve been doing lately just to help with that blank canvas syndrome is like, okay, where should I start? A quick tip would be to copy paste LinkedIn profile, put it into Chat GPT, and say like, hey, I’m meeting with this person. Can you please help me draft ten information interview questions? And every time I’ve done it’s like, hey, I’m not suggesting at all that you use those questions, I’m just saying this helps you just to start that spark of like, oh yeah, I can ask about that.
23:09
Miguel Abascal
And it’s like, also, if you put more intent and content about your situation, your context, your profile, tragedy. Hey, that’s a good example. And there are some AI tools too that can help you tailor more about who are you meeting, how can you approach them, and so on. So those are important in terms of how you close the information interview because I can share how I do them, I do mine, and then also you can share yours. But you are right at the minute, twelve or 13. I usually say, you know what, respect of your time. Time is flying so fast. I took many notes, mental notes or in paper notes, as you wish. But I do a recap and it’s like in this short period of time, you helped me. I was between a and b.
23:56
Miguel Abascal
Now it’s more clear that this is my next potential direction or how I’m going to implement it. And I always say, like, hey, will you be open to meeting with me probably in two, three months just to follow up or to see the progress or whatever. And I put that seed into the conversation because most of the times they say yes. So if they say yes, I’m open to meet again. That’s amazing because then it’s easy just to follow up and say, like, hey, you know what? Two, three months later. Thanks so much for your feedback, your advice. I’m here again with a different perspective and with more questions because now after taking your guidance, here are other five questions I have, for example. So that helps a lot.
24:40
Miguel Abascal
And I always say a thank you letter or a thank you note in a way that is like, hey, thanks so much for meeting with me yesterday. Again, it was incredible. This is what I learned. This is what I’m implementing and I’m looking forward to connecting with you in the future. So that’s kind of like how I do it. Very curious to know if were.
24:58
Luki Danukarjanto
To put a checklist together, ours would be very similar. So definitely that I already mentioned that. The timing piece of it as well, the thank you note, for sure, the recap as well. One of the other pieces is in addition to the recap and the thank you note, I actually make sure to calendarize any action items. Right. So if they give you advice, like, you should look up this book or contact this person or whatever, you better do it. Because if you follow up with them in two, three months and they remember and they say, oh, did you ever check out the book I mentioned and you’re like, no. Or did you ever reach out to that person I mentioned and you say no. Well, then why are we having this conversation?
25:37
Luki Danukarjanto
Because I’m going to tell you something and you’re not going to do it. So make sure that you might not have done exactly it, but maybe at least something that’s similar. It’s like, well, I actually didn’t read the book, but I looked at it and actually found three others that were similar but different. Have you looked at these books or. I didn’t actually reach out to this person, but I sent a message and they haven’t responded back and I did find these others that were similar. So at least make sure that you are actioning their advice and guidance because that’s the thing that I hated most when I was on the other side of the coffee chat, where people are asking for advice, I give them advice and they don’t do it and they don’t listen in. Right.
26:16
Luki Danukarjanto
I do not want to follow up with this person and doesn’t make me want to do so. So definitely the follow up. And I actually take that further where I will calendarize the follow up, where I would make sure that in two, three months, there’s a pop up that says reconnect with Miguel or whomever it is. Right. And I actually set that to never end. Right. So it’s not just in two, three months, it’s two, three months, and then two, three months after that. Two, three months after that. And I adjust the cadence depending on the person and their availability and whether or not they like the frequency. Right. But it’s to make sure that it’s consistent because as we started with, relationships take time to build. It’s unlikely you’ll have one, two conversations.
27:02
Luki Danukarjanto
And now they’re your besties, now they’re your mentor, but maybe three, four. Then they’re like, you know what? Miguel keeps showing up. Lukey keeps showing up. He keeps doing it, and he’s evolving and he’s. Maybe. Maybe I’d like to do a lot more of those.
27:17
Miguel Abascal
Yeah.
27:17
Luki Danukarjanto
So those would be some of the ways that I close as well. Is there anything else that I would have in that? No, I think most of it is. Again, our checklists are quite mirrored on that side.
27:32
Miguel Abascal
I have a quick question for you. It sounds that you put everything on your calendar, but do you have another system to follow up and say, like, okay, this date, we have this conversation, or we talk about these five different topics. Do you have, like, a note system?
27:49
Luki Danukarjanto
Yeah. When I started out, everything used to be on the calendar. Right. And then kind of advanced it to say, okay, there’s too much on the calendar. So I put it into a Google sheet with everybody in the follow up. And then now, yeah, I have a full on CRM that I use because it just gets unwieldy on a spreadsheet. Right. Because there’s too many people that you connect with over the years. So, yeah, I have a full CRM. Do most people need one? Probably not. So somewhere between calendar and a Google sheet or an excel or whatever is probably good enough. But that would be definitely helpful for folks to keep track because I agree that sometimes it’s like, what did we talk about? And if you put a couple of those notes, some people are like, oh, my gosh, you remember?
28:36
Luki Danukarjanto
And I’m like, no, I just take good notes or for some of the conversations? No, I can just scroll up in the message history. I can read up what were talking about. So those are some things. But if you show that you’re interested, you care, and then you remember these things, then it helps to accelerate the building of this connection and this relationship.
29:00
Miguel Abascal
Yeah, totally. I read the book dig your well before you are thirsty from Harvey McKay. And that’s how I learned about exactly what you’re mentioning. It’s like you should take notes, mental notes, and then download everything that you remember right after the meeting. Just because if not, you’re going to forget. Especially when you talk about in the icebreaker about things like, oh, I’m preparing for my son’s birthday, or oh, I’m going on a vacation next week. Or those are small comments that a lot of people take for granted. I take notes about them and then I just follow up and say like, hey, how was your son’s birthday? Or how was that vacation? Did you enjoy it? And then that makes people feel special because then you remember and you care, then the reciprocity factor happens.
29:49
Miguel Abascal
It’s like they also care about you and they start asking questions more about you. It’s like, oh yeah, tell me more about what’s happening in your life. Miguel and I started similar to you where for many years I had excel and excel was more than enough because it’s like, okay, I meet this person, this is what we talk about, follow up about in three months about this topic. Or if I find an article about our conversation, I will send that article like, hey, we just had this conversation. I look what I am reading today. I’m just thinking about you again and small comments like that. And now today I think there is a tool called ClickUp that I’m using that is a tool that you can use for everything, project management, CRM, anything, because it’s just a task manager tool. It’s incredible.
30:35
Miguel Abascal
But yeah, right now it’s the same. It gives you the reminders, gives you what to do, what’s next. I 100% recommend that too. But what I love gloky is that we both have done similar things and I’m doing similar approaches. Any other best practices that you have done over the years on what to do?
30:54
Luki Danukarjanto
Yeah. One of the conversations I missed in terms of the typical one is what I call a value brainstorm. Right? So there’s a couple of components to it is one after the fact to think about it. So oftentimes it’s with the reminder to say, well, how could I help this person, right? And if you’re in the moment having the conversation in the back of your head whenever they’re speaking, ask, how can I help with that right now? Initially, when you first start your coffee chats, your curiosity conversations, you’re not going to know. You’ll be like, I don’t know, how do I help? But then after weeks, months, or years, maybe you’ll get some inspiration, like as you take a shower or walk the dog or whatever.
31:39
Luki Danukarjanto
Oh, I can send him this article, I can introduce him to this person, whatever it is, because I treat that value muscle kind of like a muscle, right? The more you exercise it, the more it grows, right? So now I start to do that more purposefully with the follow up to say, okay, before I meet this person, before I reach out, what is some area of value that I can have and provide? So maybe I read a blog post that I think they would be interested in. I listened to a podcast and like, yes, they would really help, right? Sometimes I can find something and sometimes I can’t. Before I connect, I’ll just let them know that I was thinking about them.
32:17
Luki Danukarjanto
This reminded me, and that can be a good way to kind of rekindle the conversation after three months, three years, depending on whatever the cadence is. So that would be another best practice I would have. I wouldn’t say it’s a best practice. I think that’s more of an elevated practice, right. Because to be able to do that, it really takes a lot of effort. Some of these things are super simple and should be almost like network hygiene, the basics that you need to do. But some of it are more like, if you want to be like an advanced or a really caring networker, someone who really builds meaningful connections, then doing stuff like this would be much more helpful. And when you do this, if you’re always seen as the person who adds value and helps people, then the relationships develop faster.
33:05
Luki Danukarjanto
I think there’s research out there that in order for you to go from acquaintance to a casual connection, it takes on the order of like 50 hours, right. And to become a friend, it takes like 200 hours, right. And there’s the quantity of connection and there’s also the quality. So when you do stuff like looking to add value, help and be respectful, give them updates and share how much their advice has helped, that definitely goes more on the quality side, where maybe it doesn’t take 50, maybe only takes 25, maybe only takes five, right. Because you’ve invested the time to be respectful of them. So yeah, that’s another one in terms of best practices that I would include in there as well.
33:52
Miguel Abascal
I love them. Yeah, because you’re right. There are two axes. The first one is time and the other one is value. The more value you provide, of course, the more rich the relationship is going to be. But also the more time you spend with that person, the faster that exchange happens. One of the things I usually recommend as well is find ways to spend the most time with the one person in one day. Of course, not always happens because we’re strangers. I don’t want to spend more than 20 minutes with a stranger. But in some instances there are events like golfing. So when you go out golf with somebody, especially if it’s a non for profit charity situation, sometimes you’re golfing with executives and you are golfing with that team for the entire day.
34:38
Miguel Abascal
So that’s a perfect example of how can you compress that factor of the more time and the closeness of that relationship builds really quickly. Another example I had was when I went fishing with a group of colleagues. After that, everything changed and we became super close from being completely strangers, working at the same institutions and being like super close friends just after one phishing experience. So yeah, again, time and value, if you can compress them, that’s incredible. And also another consideration about value, as you were mentioning, providing value. Something that I learned about this in the book that I mentioned was sometimes you don’t need to provide value to the person that you want to meet, but if you provide value to the person that he or her loves most, then that also works out.
35:37
Miguel Abascal
So, for example, in a conversation you can hear that this person is kind of like very focused on collecting stamps for his boy, for his son. Well, next time it’s like, here’s a rare stamp that maybe your son doesn’t have and that creates more like, wow, this person cares. And of course that’s going to be a superhero in front of the son. So if you can do that more, that helps a lot. And I usually share this example about a person that I was mentoring. And I remember I went to visit my family in Mexico. I received a message from this now my friend, and he told me, it’s like, hey, where you live you just receive 2ft of snow. If it’s okay with you, I can go and shovel your driveway.
36:25
Miguel Abascal
And I was so touched and I was so happy to hear that because yes, I saw that we received 60 snow and I was not sure how I was going to park my car, especially with my family. And were arriving in the middle of the night, she was like, oh, boy, it’s going to be a rough night. But just that intention of this person trying to help, trying to be of value, meant the world for me. And because of that, I think that was a tipping point for me. It’s like, okay, he’s no longer a stranger. He’s no longer my mentee. Now it’s my friend. And now I invite him for my family event for like, hey, let’s come and eat tacos. More personal, just because of that.
37:07
Miguel Abascal
And what is insane, what is incredible was that he didn’t have to do it because my neighbors did it. So my neighbors were cleaning driveways. They saw that I was not around them. They cleaned my driveway without asking. So two things. I have incredible neighbors. That’s incredible. But this person, just the intention of trying to help, that’s what matters. Sometimes it’s just the intention. So again, going back to your best practice, I agree. It’s just a matter of finding the way to make the other person feel valued, special, and important.
37:42
Luki Danukarjanto
And I think that’s a good point where it doesn’t necessarily have to be in a professional context, because people think that when you’re having a coffee chat, it has to be at work. I have to do market research or things like that. Right? So sometimes it’s just shoveling driveway, maybe a restaurant recommendation, or did they find a stamp or whatever for their kids or things like that. It could be in a personal context as well. And then one other thing that came to mind is we’re talking about kind of the formal, scheduled informational interview where we know that next Friday at 02:00 p.m. We’re meeting. But I encourage folks to have kind of the informal ones, right.
38:19
Luki Danukarjanto
Talking about to that person that maybe you play whatever in the book club or your pickup basketball match and you know them, but you don’t really know them. Use that as an opportunity to have a curiosity conversation. Not the informational interview part you’re interrogating, but have that coffee chat bit and maybe stay after and go to the cafe like you said about the golf tournament, right? Go for drinks on the 19th hole, the 18th hole, or whatever it is. And those conversations informally can also turn into great relationships because there are ample opportunity to improve your networking, to improve your information, interviews, curiosity conversation, coffee chat skills around you if you take the time to look. Right. So that’d just be another last thing that I’d want to add to the conversation.
39:13
Miguel Abascal
I love that. So to recap, they are underrated, overrated at the same time, information, interviews, super important. But of course, if you do them as a coffee chat, as a curiosity conversation, that’s intention. It’s like, hey, I’m here to learn more about you. Yes, I want to help you. I want to serve you. Something that I’ve seen and I’ve learned over the years is that people sometimes don’t expect that question. It’s like, hey, what can I do for you? And it’s like, do anything. Sometimes it’s weird, but it’s more about active listening and see, like, okay, this person loves these things that I can support or I can help. And then with the years, another thing that you can also improve is like ask prompting questions to help you understand how can you provide more value.
40:00
Miguel Abascal
So for example, in that intro or elevator pitch, you can say something more about. You can ask questions about what do they love to do? What are the best things that they love about their job today. And then with the way they answer, you can understand it like, okay, this person likes more data or it’s more big picture or if this person wants more specifics or more generic, and then with that you can tailor more about, okay, I can provide more value about, as you mentioned, providing a book, a recommendation. Maybe this person needs to know the other person because they are so similar, they can help so much each other. Yeah, so many things to do. But just to recap, it’s the greatest tool ever from my perspective. I became addicted to these coffee chats a long time ago.
40:47
Miguel Abascal
I’ve been doing them for a while. I keep doing them. When I was looking for job promotions, I was doing five to six a week. And when I’m not looking for job promotions, I’m still doing three to four a week. So it’s just a matter of practice. And sometimes I just do them just to learn more about the other person and to see what else I can do. But to your point, Lucky, it’s taking notes and following up and serving. How can I serve better? How can I help the other person? And that just helps you build relationships like crazy.
41:18
Luki Danukarjanto
That’s awesome. So yeah, as you mentioned, it doesn’t really matter what you call them, as long as the intent is to care to serve the other person and really make it more about them versus make it about you that often has the most beneficial rewards as part of the process. And learn, grow, get a little bit better than you were last time. Don’t worry if the first conversation is totally awkward, you totally mess it up. But just make sure that to get that better and improve the next time. So thanks so much for sharing your insights on informational interviews, coffee chats, curiosity, conversation, how to network, that sort of thing and hopefully we’ll have you back for a future episode.
41:56
Miguel Abascal
Oh, I love this lucky, thank you so much. Also, I love how everything happened just out of a post and then we’re talking now about it and I think we had a really good conversation with a lot of good insights for people. So thanks so much for the invitation. I’m looking forward to connect again and as always, lucky, super happy.
42:16
Luki Danukarjanto
Sounds good. Thanks Miguel.
42:18
Miguel Abascal
Thank you. See you soon.
42:20
Miguel Abascal
Coming up next is the story of a newcomer woman who hustled her way up the corporate ladder facing barriers as an immigrant, she leveraged relationship skill building and positivity to engineer promotion after promotion at a top canadian bank. Join us to hear the exact strategies that fuel her rapid career. Rise from niche experience that set her apart to expanding networks that propel her forward. Her courage to speak up and lean on others for support provides lessons for us all. Be inspired by her incredible determination to turn struggle into strength on the quest to belonging. Stay tuned for an uplifting account of setbacks, comebacks and ultimate corporate success. Hey, thank you so much for listening to the show. Now we’re excited to take your podcast experience to the next level. But what is exactly podcasting 20?
43:11
Miguel Abascal
Well, let me tell you, it is the evolution of podcasting. With Fountain. You are not just a listener, you’re an active participant who can earn money by engaging with your favorite shows. It is a game changer. Getting started is very simple. In the show notes you will find the link to download the Fountain app once installed on your phone and your account is set up. Search for newcomers on fire and hit the follow button. Don’t forget to do the same for all your favorite shows. Now here is where it gets exciting. As you listen to our episodes, you will earn Sats, which is real money. Keep an eye on Fountain’s homepage for promoted episode where you can earn up to 100 sats just for listening to newcomers on fire.
43:55
Miguel Abascal
When you like our episodes and you create a clip for a limited time, we will send you 200 sats. And guess what? If the community likes them, you will receive even more sads. It’s amazing you can use the sats you have earned to send us a boost which is like a mini payment with a message. We are super active and responsive and we make sure to respond to almost.
44:17
Miguel Abascal
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44:19
Miguel Abascal
Plus, we give a shout out to our top boosters from previous episodes. If you are feeling extra generous, you can top up your fountain wallet with a bank card or a lining transfer from a lining app. Supporting your favorite podcasters has never been this easy. The easiest way to learn is just to get started. If you have any trouble or questions, just go to support at Fountain. The team is amazing, extremely helpful and responsive. And that’s it. You are now fully equipped for podcasting 20 on fountain. Happy listening, engaging and earning sad.
44:56
Intro/Outro
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