Make your Intercultural Competence your Superpower with Sabina Michael (NOF#9)

00:00
Miguel Abascal
Welcome to another episode of newcomers on fire. Now we are at 20 Podcast. To truly enjoy the full 20 podcast experience, we recommend downloading the Fountain FM app. At the end of the show, I will walk you through on how to do this because we have some pretty cool rewards for you. Before we dive into today’s discussion, I have a quick request. If you have been enjoying our show and finding value in the stories and advice we share, please consider supporting the show by leaving us a review on Apple podcasts and Spotify. Your feedback means the world to us, and it helps us better serve you. So drop us a review and let us know what you love the most about this episode.

00:41
Miguel Abascal
Doing this also help other newcomers discover our podcast, making it a valuable resource for more people on their journey to making their dreams a reality. Thank you for being a part of our community and for your continued support. In this special episode, we sit down with incredible Savina Michael, an expert in empowering newcomers to thrive in their professional lives. She’s the driving force behind Business Edge, a transformative program that has changed the lives of countless immigrants, including myself. Now, in this conversation, Sabina shares her philosophy on the two step process that can be a game changer for any newcomer. It is like a professional ikigui for newcomers, emphasizing the importance of self awareness and understanding the Canadian job market. You will discover how to align your skills with employer needs, overcome cultural communication challenges, and find your place in the Canadian professional landscape.

01:37
Miguel Abascal
But that’s not all.

01:38
Miguel Abascal
Sabina also sheds light on the challenges many newcomers face when it comes to self promotion, and she provides invaluable advice on how to overcome these cultural barriers. Get ready to discover the keys to success in your new home as we dive deep into the incredible story of Sabina Michael.

01:57
Intro/Outro
Welcome to the newcomers on fire show with your host, Miguel Abascal. Listen to people like you sharing their journeys, struggles and their breakthroughs. Be ready to be inspired to take control of your time, career, finances and future. Fulfill your potential, become the person you’re meant to be and make your dreams a reality.

02:26
Miguel Abascal
Well, welcome back to another episode of newcomers on fire. Today, I’m more than excited because my dream has come true. I’m talking with Sabina, and before I tell you more about Sabina, just want to say hello. Sabina. How are you?

02:40
Sabina Michael
Wonderful, Miguel. Very excited to be here with you today.

02:44
Miguel Abascal
I’m more than excited. I’m thrilled because I know you and I think we met back in 2016 when I took an amazing program, which we’re going to be talking more about that in a moment, but, yeah, for the benefit of everybody, can you please tell more about who is Sabina?

03:01
Sabina Michael
Sure. So I’m an immigrant. I came to Canada about 20 years ago, so quite a long time ago. And there are days yet that it still feels like I came yesterday, came to Canada from India, have a background in marketing in HR. I belonged to a time when you could switch industries very easily and came here thinking, of course this country I’m qualified, I’m going to get the job that I want and the dream that I want. And landed here. Like many other immigrant stories, struggled for the first six months, had no clue what was happening to me, and then figured out my path. Currently, I am at the Rotman School of Management. I am the associate director of the Intercultural Skills lab. And what I love and about what we do is supporting immigrants in their career journey in Canada.

03:53
Sabina Michael
And we’ll talk a lot more about the program that I run. But I think my goal and my passion and everything that I do is around. How do we understand, how do we adapt? What choices do we make in making sure that this journey to Canada has been worth our while?

04:12
Miguel Abascal
Exactly. And I love what you just said. Like, you have been in Canada for 20 years, but you still feel that you came yesterday. And that is the same feeling I have. I came to Canada 14 years ago and I still feel like a newcomer. I guess that’s something that is going to stay with me because it was something that was so hard, so difficult, that I guess going through is just one of a lifetime experience. So can you please tell us more about your decision to move into a new country and if everything go according to plan?

04:43
Sabina Michael
So this was more of let’s try this. There was no real reason know, we need to go to Canada. It was more of let’s try this and see where it takes us. I had two daughters. We were living in the Middle East at that time. And we knew that in the Middle East after your children finish grade twelve, it’s very hard to get visas for them to stay on with their universities there. So it was more of a long term plan. Let’s apply, let’s see what happens. We thought the application would take five years. We got it in six months. And then it was like, oh, we really need to leave because of course there is a date of landing. So we literally landed on our last date of landing. We had cut at that fine.

05:25
Sabina Michael
When I went for my immigration sorry to meet with the immigration officer. He looked at my resume and he looked at what I had done and said, oh, this is going to be very easy for yeah, Canada will welcome you. You’ll do wonderfully well. And then you hear that and you’re like, oh, of course, right. I will be successful here. So to answer your question, did things work out as I had planned? No, not at all. Nothing did. But then also things worked out in a way that I would never have imagined or dreamed of. And I think that’s what makes this whole journey so totally.

06:02
Miguel Abascal
I have one question that I’ve been asking recently, and if Canada were a person, how is your relationship with this person? Can you describe more about that?

06:13
Sabina Michael
An honest answer is actually a love hate relationship. I think, like many relationships, there’s so much I love about this country, and hate is a strong word, but there are also so many things that I feel we could do better, and it’s why I do the work that I do. But if it was a person, definitely a person that has allowed me to grow, a person whose values that I relate to, and I’m very proud to be in a country which has those values that I share and a person where I can be myself.

06:49
Miguel Abascal
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I’ve been thinking about that too. And for me, the same situation. At the beginning, were not looking eye to eye, and potentially were sleeping in different rooms. But now we are like best partners, confident. It’s an amazing relationship. Tell us more about those challenges at the beginning. What did you face and how did you overcome the challenges? And also potentially share a little bit more about how did you land your first professional job?

07:18
Sabina Michael
Sure. So you come here, you do exactly what you’ve done in your home country. You open job ads, and you apply for them. And I did that. I think I applied for about 200 or 250. Not a single rejection letter. Forget a phone call. Not even a rejection letter. And I had no idea about how to apply for jobs here because it is a very different market. And I’m talking 20 years ago when things were definitely a lot more different here. I still remember there was one phone call that I got from a recruiter at that point of time. It was the end of the day, and I didn’t expect the phone call. And I picked up the phone call.

08:02
Sabina Michael
And I think a big lesson for me there was never pick up the phone when you’re not ready for a recruiter, but clearly did not do a good job of it because they never called me back. And then I realized, okay, I’m doing something wrong. What is it that I need to do differently? And when I first landed here, Miguel, a lot of us, I went to a number of agencies, and I’m talking 20 years back, when the services were very different from what they were today. And everybody said, you speak English well, you are educated, you’ve had a thriving career. You should be fine. And I believed that story. So when things didn’t work out, you start questioning yourself, and your confidence takes a very big hit. So then I said, okay, what am I doing wrong? I need to figure this out.

08:52
Sabina Michael
And I actually went to the YWCA at that time, and I forget her name, but I really wish I could remember. I had a conversation with this wonderful, wonderful counselor, and they were running a program for immigrant women to support them to find volunteer opportunities. And you have to go through a program, and then they place you in this volunteer opportunity. And then she looked at me and said, oh, you don’t need the program. You’re fine. Just go for this volunteer opportunity. And she gave me this first opportunity. That was my first break in Canada. And it was a volunteer job with a small agency, not for profit. And it was hard because I was not connecting with people the way I was able to connect with in my home country.

09:40
Sabina Michael
I was preparing reports that they were looking at it and saying, oh, but this is not what we really asked for. And even the style of dressing right, that I am dressed professionally, but yet something is different when you go in there. And I remember this was on King Street, and I would be so thrilled that I am downtown and this is where I want to work. But I would also come home and cry. Many days I would come home and cry because I was here with the kids. It was hard. They were very young trying to manage all of this. It seemed like a daunting task. So because I had children, I would work till 03:00 and then come home, take care of them, and after they went to bed, I would do the rest of my work.

10:19
Sabina Michael
So for a volunteer job, that was a lot. But I learned so much, and that volunteer opportunity led me to my first job in Canada.

10:29
Miguel Abascal
Oh, wow, this is incredible. Because another thing that I love is that even though your story you mentioned is it was 20 years ago. Well, I came to Canada 14 years ago, and it was exactly the same story. People told me, oh, you have a master’s degree, you have international experience, you have all of this. It’s going to be so easy. In fact, you don’t need any of these programs. These programs are for people that need help. But then, to your point, I was like, well, if I’m so good, why I’m not getting any calls or interviews or anything, right? So what’s happening? And I took a lot of programs, and I was still confused, and I thought it was well, you know, what was because maybe 14 years ago, things have changed.

11:06
Miguel Abascal
But I’m meeting with people today, and they are still in the same journey of like, what is happening? Why I’m not getting anything, like any feedback. And another thing that I wanted to ask, just to go a little bit deeper into volunteering. Was volunteering something big india, or was that something different in Canada? What is the perception of volunteering?

11:28
Sabina Michael
So for the first six months when I didn’t have a job and people told me you needed to volunteer here, I said, over my dead body. I don’t give my time for free.

11:37
Miguel Abascal
Exactly.

11:38
Sabina Michael
Because it’s just not a concept. Right, right. And then I did that. And not only did I give my time, but I gave all my time and more, but I saw the doors that it opened up. And as a learning opportunity, it was fantastic. What I learned about people and culture and the way organizations work here was absolutely amazing. I worked with the most wonderful manager at that point of time, and the way he supported me was incredible.

12:07
Miguel Abascal
That’s amazing. So pretty much volunteering is as important as a paid professional job, in a way. Awesome.

12:15
Sabina Michael
Here’s what I would say, though, Miguel. My lesson learned from volunteering, be strategic about it. If you volunteer like me, five days a week, working late into the night, you don’t have time for job search then, especially when you’re managing kids and a family and everything else. So be strategic about it. Choose wisely. Choose things that align with what you want to do and actually provide you with skills that will make sense here about the kind of roles that you want to work with.

12:45
Miguel Abascal
Yeah.

12:45
Miguel Abascal
And also you mentioned something that caught my attention. It’s like you were not able to connect with people the same way you were connecting before. Can you just explore? Well, tell us more a bit about that and also the importance of networking in Canada.

12:58
Sabina Michael
Sure. When you are new, the only thing on your mind is, I need a job. Right. And you are starting every conversation and I’m again, 20 years ago, very little tools available. I’m starting every conversation with I need a job. And I could see people shutting down. And again, like every immigrant, you think, oh, there’s something wrong with me. People don’t even want to socialize. Right. Have a pleasant conversation. It didn’t go far. And at that time, Miguel, somebody told me, you need to do informational interviews. I had no idea what it was. There’s one, and I will share that story shortly, which was fantastic, but I didn’t know what I was doing when I went into those conversations. Right. And I was communicating about things that I thought were important for a professional here in Canada.

13:52
Sabina Michael
20 years later, I realized that I needed to change what I spoke about. I needed to talk about things that were important for the professionals or the hiring managers here in Canada and not the things that were important in my home country. I’ll give you a very simple example. The one thing that often comes to mind is that people from different parts of the world say, I work very hard. If you need me to work late at night, I’ll do that. I’ll put my heads to the ground and just keep working. But that’s not appreciated here. They think that you don’t know how to manage time. I didn’t know that. I kept talking about how wonderfully late I could work, but nobody appreciates that, right? So understanding those nuances just becomes so important.

14:33
Sabina Michael
Understanding what an employer or a hiring manager values and aligning what you bring to that is a skill. That’s a definite skill that you learn, I think, over time. But yeah, that’s a skill.

14:46
Miguel Abascal
Oh, I love that. And I can tell you that thanks to you and your amazing team, I became addicted to information interviews. At the beginning, I was like, what is this? Like, inviting strangers to a coffee date to talk about professional stuff? Is that a thing? And people were like, yeah, it works. Of course, my first information interviews were a disaster, but I became really good. So good. And I have more stories about the program that I took and that you led and the awesomeness of that program. But information interviews definitely is a skill that people must master if they want to connect and learn more from others. So let’s jump into your passion in terms of you are an authority intercultural competence and communication. How did that happen?

15:36
Miguel Abascal
And also, I’m very curious to know about the beginnings of the most amazing, if not the best, program for newcomers that I believe exists in Canada, which is Business Edge. And of course, it’s something that you created and your team. So, yeah, I want to know more about that story as well.

15:52
Sabina Michael
Thank you. Thank you for calling it the most amazing program. I do believe that. But it’s nice to get that validation from others as well. And the reason I say that Business Edge is an amazing program, Miguel, is that what I have learned over the years, it takes a community, it takes a village, right? And what Business Edge we’ve been very successful in doing is building this community. And so, like you said, that I created, and I genuinely mean this, I just was part of the journey. But there were so many people who’ve shaped it and created it and made it what it is. So going back to the first part of your question, which now I have.

16:33
Miguel Abascal
Completely forgotten about your passion and how you became an authority intercultural competence and communication.

16:40
Sabina Michael
So this was something that I did not know about before I came to Canada. Definitely was not my skill set. Even today, when I tell people what I do, they think that, what are you talking about? How does it matter? Just treat everybody nicely and it’ll all work out, right? I came into this field by accident in many ways. My first job was with an immigrant supporting agency, access employment. And I remember meeting intercultural professionals trainers that I worked with. I had the amazing opportunity to work with some really leaders in this field. And I was fascinated by what they did. And that I would learn from them, I would observe them. And then I thought, I like this. I relate to it.

17:28
Sabina Michael
But I also see how my values, my behavior is influenced by my culture and how people are perceiving me because of that and the whole concept of do I adapt? Do I integrate? Do I assimilate? Right. All of these were questions that were really confounding me at that time, and that’s how I got into the space. And I think I have invested a lot of time in learning about this, invested in programs and courses, but also I work in the best possible lab in the world, which is Toronto. You cannot get more multicultural like this. And observing people, listening to them, asking curious questions, that’s what actually developed my understanding in this field. It’s expanded a lot more. I think I’ve now expanded it into also the space of inclusion. Right?

18:20
Sabina Michael
What does inclusion really mean for each one of us from whether is it antiracism or being equitable? All of these are themes and topics that are currently my passion and what drives me and motivates me and where I am investing a lot of my own learning, but also in terms of what I am creating and the programs that I do. Talking of the programs, the Business Edge program, this is a program that we run at the Rotman School of Management. It’s created for immigrants who are underemployed. So it’s not a program for recently arrived immigrants who’ve just landed in Canada, but more for people who’ve started or touched the labor market and find that things are not working the way they did.

19:08
Sabina Michael
My favorite story is from a participant in the Business Edge program who told me sabina a hammer in Brazil was a hammer in Canada. For some reason, it’s a screwdriver. And I love that story. And that’s what we do in Business Edge, right? Really helping you unpack why this is so complex. What are the nuances of it? And the program is a six month program that we run. We offer it for people who are working so that they can come in the evenings or on weekends. But as a graduate of the program and so many graduates that we worked with, I think that what I hear from everybody is, it changed my life.

19:50
Miguel Abascal
Yes.

19:51
Sabina Michael
It transformed the way I looked at the world. And I think it’s much more than just a program. It’s more than just a career program. It really helps you to learn, unlearn, rethink, and then become who you want to be. And I think that’s the beauty of Business Edge.

20:10
Miguel Abascal
No? And you’re completely right. It’s so interesting, because when I went to that program, business Edge was recommended by three of my friends, and when I was asking them, It’s okay, what is this? And they were like, oh, it’s great. It’s, like, amazing. And it’s like, okay, well, what it is? And it’s like, they were trying to explain me what they got out of it, and it’s like, okay, that’s okay. And then I went on information in an Open house session, and then I saw that a lot of participants have a lot of success and that the return of investment was significantly high. And I was like, hey, I know numbers. And that number, it’s not that accurate. It cannot be that accurate. That’s crazy high. So I was like, okay, I’m going to test this out to see if that works.

20:54
Miguel Abascal
And crazy enough, within the program, I got promoted. And it was insane because what I learned from the program was many things. First of all was why I was so invisible. I was so invisible because I was not communicating my value. I was not communicating what I was doing. And also I was completely doing the things that people will not even know that I was doing. So again, that part, connecting with others, building relationships, boosting my confidence, that was incredible, too. Before business h, I thought I was broken. It’s like, well, yeah, I was a big shot in Mexico, in Canada, not so much. But thanks to the program, I was like, hey, no, wait a minute. I’m a great know, super good professional, and yeah, thanks to oh, and I can it’s insane. I love it. For me, it was also the before.

21:48
Sabina Michael
And so I wanted to share another point here. Miguel, this is again coming from a graduate where I recently met. And I said, oh, how are you doing? And how things are going? And he said, I’ve been dying to talk to you, to tell you this. And he said, When I came to business, I thought you were going to teach us what it means to be Canadian and to turn into something else. But what we learned in the program and what I am is just who I am and a better version of me. And I like this version of me. I just thought it was beautiful the way he put it, right?

22:20
Miguel Abascal
I love that. And you’re right, because I knew English, but the program taught me Canadian, to be honest, because it’s the communication, it’s what people are saying. Through between the lines are the invisible barriers, the ungrateful rules of the culture, which is crazy, but right. You come to a new culture and of course you want to succeed, you want to help, you want to thrive, but no one tells you it’s like, do not do that because that’s a big no. And then until you do it and something blows up. But I love it. So how was the beginning of the program? If you can tell us more about how you joined Rotman and then how you created this movement, I can tell you right now, it’s a movement. So many hundreds of people have taken it.

23:05
Sabina Michael
Thank you. So I was working at Access Employment and at that point of time, the Initiative for Women in Business at Ratman received funding to create something specific for women. And they chose to create a program for women immigrants, because they were the Initiative for Women in Business. And I had a friend who worked at Ratsman, and I met that friend through volunteering. So all of this gets connected, right? And he called me because I work at Access Employment with Immigrants, and said, we’re creating this program. Would love to have your input on some of the things we are doing. And I said, sure, I’m happy to give advice. Advice is free. But I would love to be part of the program as a student as well, just because it is at Ratman.

23:55
Sabina Michael
And so I came here as a student, and then I did what we teach in the program to do, which is to gain visibility. And I spoke to my current boss at that time, and, you know, I’m very interested. If ever there’s an opportunity at Ratman, I would love to be part of that. And they applied for funding a year later, I think a year and a half later, she called me and said, sabina, you said this a year and a half ago. Are you interested? I said yes, I am. Here’s a role for you. We’ve got funded for a program that we are creating. It started out as a two week program that has morphed into what we have now. And I think with every change, with every addition, we’ve added so much more value to the program.

24:39
Sabina Michael
It used to be five days a week no, sorry, two days a week and a Saturday, which now, of course, we’ve adapted and changed. But that’s what really started the program. Since then, it’s grown.

24:52
Miguel Abascal
Wow, that story. Just tell me that it was meant to because now the ripple effects have been of all the people that you have helped. It’s incredible. I think the community is in the hundreds of people right now.

25:04
Sabina Michael
Michael it comes back to what we teach in the program, seizing opportunities when you see it. Right? When were at lunch, were having lunch. It was our graduation lunch. And I think that was the second time that I had seen the director there. And I was nervous. I was like, oh, should I talk to her? Should I not talk to her? What should I say? Right? You always have those thoughts. And I thought, okay, you know what? It doesn’t matter. Just go and have a casual conversation with her. And I did, obviously, that she had some sense of who I was in the program, but that conversation stayed with her and stayed with me, and there I was. And I think it’s all about that. I truly believe that. They say, seize the day. For me, my motto is Seize the moment.

25:47
Sabina Michael
It’s called carpe articulum. Seize the moment. Because when it comes, it’s so fleeting sometimes. But if you can see it and if you’re prepared for it can make a big difference in the way your path unfolds.

25:59
Miguel Abascal
Exactly. That’s what my grandma used to say. Hey, the definition of luck, son? It’s preparation plus opportunity. If the opportunity comes and you’re not prepared, bad luck.

26:08
Sabina Michael
Yeah, absolutely.

26:11
Miguel Abascal
So that’s incredible. I’m super happy that we’re able to talk about the beginning of business age, because, again, it’s one of the best, if not the best, programs for newcomers in Canada. What will be your recommendation for somebody that arrived to Canada has been trying to find their way, struggling a little bit. How can they become more intercultural competent? What can they do to gain that muscle and say, okay, now I know what to do?

26:42
Sabina Michael
So I think this has been my philosophy. I call it the two step process. The first step is awareness, and that starts with self awareness. What drives you? How are you communicating? We fail to understand how deeply culture impacts our behavior. We fail to understand how deeply culture impacts our communication style. So if you don’t know who you are, what your values are, and how others are perceiving you, it’s very difficult that what are you changing if you don’t know what needs to change or what are you not changing? Because it is such a deeply ingrained value that you don’t want to change it. Right. Business edge is not teaching you that you need to change or adapt. It’s about making those choices and those decisions. So the first step is to self awareness. Who are you? What motivates you?

27:31
Sabina Michael
What kind of skills do you have? What strengths do you have? And how does all of this come together in the package that is you? So you start with self awareness. So learn that about yourself. You learn that through asking questions. You learn that through observation. You learn that through reading. Or you join BusinessAge, and then we support you in getting the answer to that. That’s another way out. But definitely that’s another option. And then you learn about the market. Right? What does the market need? Because I believe strongly and that every immigrant comes with a lot of strengths and a lot of skills. But the way we talk about it and the way we communicate is very different, and that’s culturally influenced. And if you can learn what does an employer want? What is their goals? What are their values?

28:20
Sabina Michael
And align what you have to offer with that. And I’m not saying change yourself and pretend to be somebody else, but look at the way you present your stories, because in every story, there are a number of factors that influence that story. And what are you highlighting in the story? Like my previous example, if I focus on working very hard, and if the organization doesn’t value you, they don’t hear me. But I also work hard. I also work strategically. And so if I focus on working strategically and that’s aligned with what the employer wants, then that works better. So know yourself, know your market, and then find where the two come together and you will find your place. I truly believe that. And I’ve seen it happen over and over again with my participants, that it does work.

29:06
Miguel Abascal
That’s amazing. It’s like a professional Ikiga, in a way where you just find the sweet spot where everything just comes together. Because you’re right, sometimes we are not aware of what we are not aware. And unconsciously, we just repeat the same bias. And sometimes that creates issues.

29:25
Sabina Michael
Yes. I remember, I think I was at one point when I was talking to you and a couple of the other participants, and were looking at what can we do? How do we communicate about the program? And I think one of you said that we don’t know what we don’t know. And because of that, we assume we know a lot. And I think when we came into Business Edge, we realized that the impact of what we thought were communicating was not what was being received. And you never know that because in Canada, nobody gives you that feedback.

30:00
Miguel Abascal
Right, right.

30:01
Sabina Michael
And so you walk away from a conversation based on your understanding of the conversation, and you’ve missed all the cues that Canadians do give about how or not well, the conversation went right. And reading that becomes so critical because otherwise you are completely lost.

30:20
Miguel Abascal
Yes, and sometimes I’m still completely lost because some people are also a lot between the lines. It’s like they are telling you, great job. That was amazing. And then they tell you something positive, and then it’s like, but continue doing it. And it’s like, what should I do then? Should I continue? Should I change? And then yeah, it’s so weird, to be honest.

30:42
Sabina Michael
Yes. And again, it’s very cultural. Right. Miguel and I have kids here who have grown up here, and I see the way they operate in their workplaces now, and they seem to know it instinctively. They seem to know exactly what to do. And I think, how do you know that? And I asked them that question, and they’re like, what do you mean? How do you know that? You know that, right? Because again, that is what it is. Right? That’s how you learn what is appropriate or not appropriate in a culture by just being in it and absorbing it and observing it. And for us who’ve learnt different patterns, it’s very hard to unlearn. Very hard to unlearn.

31:23
Miguel Abascal
Oh, wow. Yeah, that’s super good. Any advice in terms of how to become more visible? Because sometimes there are some cultures, including mine, where self promoting is not a thing a lot of people have been asking me. It’s like, I feel really uncomfortable talking about myself or talking about my achievements, as I if it was a team that did it. I feel I’m taking credit. And of course, a lot of these feelings about, like, I cannot say that because it’s not true or I’m being not humble enough and all of this. What would be your advice for somebody that’s thinking like that right now?

32:05
Sabina Michael
Absolutely right. That we all come from cultures where humility, being humble is strongly encouraged. My advice to everybody is when you are talking about things that you have done, canada is a country that is individualistic. And what it means is that you obviously have done a project together with a team. So you cannot take credit for the work the team did. But you contributed in that team, and that’s what people want to hear. What were your contributions? How did you make a difference? Miguel, you and I can be on the same team, doing the same task. The way you do it is the Miguel way. The way I do it is the Sabina way. And that’s what they want to hear. What did Sabina do differently that made an impact?

32:53
Sabina Michael
And when you can look at it from that perspective so it’s not about an I and a we. Yes. You can start by saying, I worked on this project. Amazing team. This is what we delivered. My contribution was then it’s not that you’re taking credit away from somebody else. You’re owning what you have done. And I think, again, it’s something that’s very much a trait, a cultural trait individualistic cultures, owning your actions, owning what you’ve done well, but also owning what you have not done well.

33:26
Miguel Abascal
You’re so right. And speaking up as well.

33:29
Sabina Michael
Yes. Right. And so if you start reframing this not as bragging, not as boasting, but owning what I did, taking ownership in it, taking pride in it, and saying it in a way that, yes, you give credit to the others who were on the team, but what was your impact? What did you do differently? And sometimes we don’t know how to articulate that because we’ve never thought like that. We’ve never been trained to think like that. And one suggestion I would make is write it down. Because when you start writing it down in your head, it seems all fine, but when you write it down, you actually see exactly what your contribution was. So I think that’s something that I would suggest to somebody who is uncomfortable with being boastful.

34:15
Miguel Abascal
Yeah, no. Well, first of all, you’re so right. It’s needed, it’s important, and it’s the only way to become visible, to be honest. Because if not yeah, my story, I will work 12 hours, 14 hours like crazy, and I will not get recognized. And I was always asking myself, like, why people not see what I’m doing or what I’m making. And the contribution was because I was not sharing enough. I was not talking about I was not promoting it so much. So, yeah, 100% curious about Sabina. If you could send a Tweet to Sabina before taking the plane to coming to Canada. What would you say to Sabina before coming to Canada?

34:59
Sabina Michael
I would say this is a package deal. You will gain a lot of things, you will lose a lot of things, and you need to be comfortable and redefine success for yourself. If I measured success based on the old Sabino, I would be a very miserable and unhappy person. But I have redefined what success looks like for me. And I’m very happy with the success and what I have redefined. And I think that’s what I would say. I went through a lot of unhappiness unnecessarily. Once I learned to accept the whole package, I’m much happier.

35:38
Miguel Abascal
Oh, wow, that’s so deep. Yeah, exactly. And I can tell you that’s exactly what happened to me too, because once you are just happy with the new reality and also making peace with my new identity, it’s like, hey, now life is much better, much happier, much joyful. And we can talk more about the goodness, about Canada in that way.

36:02
Sabina Michael
Absolutely, Miguel. And I’m going to use you as an example here. You are a beautiful story, right? You could have chosen to focus on all the things that were not working. But when I look at you, I see a person who’s not just done that, but has also created opportunity for so many other people. You’ve got a voice. You’ve created a new identity. If I asked Miguel, who was the CEO of a coffee company in Mexico, you would never dream of all that you have done today. But I can also tell you that you’ve grown as a person, right. You would not be this person if you had stayed on. There are so many values and traits that you always had but that are shining through right now. And Canada gave you that opportunity.

36:46
Sabina Michael
But you could have chosen to say, no, I don’t want to do this, or you could have seized the opportunity. And I think for me, you are a beautiful example of how you seize that opportunity and create something else, not what you probably dreamt about, but, hey, it’s a very different package. And it’s a package that I think you like, too, right?

37:04
Miguel Abascal
You like you’re so kind, Sabina, and you’re so right, because before I was so cocky, I was completely top of the world. And Canada taught me to be humble, but also to redefine what was success for me. And you’re so right. Today is completely different, and it’s more about helping people, serving people, being of value and yeah, but thank you. Thanks so much for your kind words. If you could have a billboard accessible to all the newcomers of Canada, what would you say to everybody? What will be your message?

37:40
Sabina Michael
Two things that I would say. The first one is build community. Build community. Because you are alone here, you’ve left behind a huge community. But when you build your community, make sure that there are people from different cultures there. Because if you want to stick to your own culture, you might as well stayed in your home country, right? Make sure that you are it won’t be the same kind of community that you would have, but build that community. Make sure that your core group of people is as diverse as possible. It will shape your thinking, it will really grow you. It will also help you to redefine who you are and what you have to offer here in Canada. So I think that’s the first thing I would put on the billboard. The second one is you don’t have to do it alone.

38:31
Sabina Michael
There is so much support out there. The professional immigrants networks, unstoppable me being an example of it, programs, recently arrived immigrants, programs like Business Age, all of these are here to support you. Embrace them, join them, but also don’t go there just to get that certificate or I’ve done this. Go there to learn and you’ll find the world changing for you.

38:57
Miguel Abascal
I love that. Oh, wow. I wish I had known this before coming to Canada as well. So thank you for that advice. Any last thoughts? Anything that we forgot to mention?

39:10
Sabina Michael
I think what I’m going to quote you on this.

39:13
Miguel Abascal
Thank you.

39:13
Sabina Michael
You said this actually after Business Edge, you said, I could have done all of this probably by myself through trial and error, and it would have maybe taken me five years, six years, ten years to figure out or do what I did, which was join the program and to learn how to do it. But get that sustained support, right? Get that guidance, get that coaching, because each one of us is individuals. If I tell you, Miguel, you should network in a particular way, that might flop badly for you because you are not me. And that way won’t work. And we all listen to lots of advice when we come from this culture, I mean, when we come to this country, but it’s from people and their experiences. What you need is somebody who can support you in the way that makes sense for you.

40:04
Sabina Michael
Right? And I think that’s what I would tell people. Get that support, get that help. It doesn’t have to be such a struggle.

40:13
Miguel Abascal
I agree. It doesn’t need to be painful and it doesn’t need to be lonely nor a mental health issue. So if you’re experiencing all of that and you’re feeling frustrated, angry, sad, it’s because you might need more community, more coaches, more mentors to help you break through. So thank you. That’s incredible. Sabina, I always love talking to you. It’s like, I feel so inspired. Who will be the person or the group of people that you are very grateful for all the success that you have or that you have accomplished today?

40:48
Sabina Michael
Absolutely. So many. I think I’ll start with my parents for raising me the way they did, to be resilient, for raising me, to be not afraid. There were moments I was afraid. So definitely them, my children who’ve been on this journey with me and have rolled their eyes at me and said, okay, figure this out for yourself. So definitely those two. But I want to make a shout out and I wish I knew her name to the person at YMCA who was the job developer for a program for women who first believed in me. And the second person I want to make two more, actually, is Catherine Wilding from Access Employment who works still working there. I had an informational interview with her and the story is she took my resume and said, hey, we need to hire her. Right.

41:42
Miguel Abascal
Wow.

41:43
Sabina Michael
It was such a beautiful moment. Didn’t know this is what it was going to, but it opened up the world for me. But the last person that I want to thank, and I really deeply do, is the principal of the Montessori Daycare that my younger daughter went to. She was my first reference. She supported me all through the journey when I was trying to figure things out. When I was running late, I would call her and nobody does that. And I’d say, I’m running late, Miss Lalita. And she’d say, don’t worry, I’ll drop her home. Just ask your older daughter to come down and pick her up or I don’t know what to do today. I’m feeling low. And I would talk to her. Such an amazing woman. Deeply grateful for her as well.

42:25
Miguel Abascal
Oh, wow. Definitely. We need to build monuments to all of them because it takes a village, to be honest.

42:31
Sabina Michael
It really does. And I could go on the list as long there’s Tammy and Tammy, our coach, who really coached me a lot when I was struggling. Right. Because sometimes you question yourself, what are you doing here? What is the purpose of all of this? And she was such an amazing coach. There’s so many Shannon. I could go endless. The list is longer. But I’m truly grateful for every person who’s crossed my life and shaped and influenced my sabina. That includes every participant in Business Edge.

43:01
Miguel Abascal
Exactly. Well, I can tell you have touched and transformed the lives of so many, including mine, and for many reasons, professionally and more than professionally. So thank you for that. Changed my life. The reason I say it was a dream come true to have you in the show is because I have you in so high esteem that it’s like, oh, wow. It’s incredible. Just to share your message and also for more people to know about you and also of what you do, your passions and the program business edge, which, again, I’m recommending so much. But thank you, Sabina. And yeah, I just want to say thank you.

43:39
Sabina Michael
Thank you, Miguel. I think every time I have a conversation with you, I leave inspired and energized, and I truly appreciate that. But most of all for being such a champion, for believing not just believing, but applying what you learned and allowing it to change your life. I think it’s wonderful to see not just you, but so many other participants in the program, but you and I have stayed in touch over the years and it’s been just so wonderful to have been part of this journey with you.

44:09
Miguel Abascal
Thank you so much. Well, Sabina, thank you so much to your success and we’ll see you soon.

44:14
Sabina Michael
Thank you so much, Mikas. Bye.

44:16
Miguel Abascal
In our next episode, we’re diving deep.

44:18
Miguel Abascal
Into a crucial skill every newcomer needs to master how to nail coffee meetings, also known as information interviews. Join me as I sit down with a seasoned coach who has guided hundreds of individuals on their career journeys. We will explore the ins and outs of why these coffee meetings or curiosity conversations are vital, how to prepare for them, and uncover best practices for success. To be honest, I initially thought this.

44:46
Miguel Abascal
Conversation was going to be just about.

44:48
Miguel Abascal
Ten minutes, but the conversation was so good and insightful that it took almost 40. You don’t want to miss this one. Hey, thank you so much for listening to the show. Now we’re excited to take your podcast experience to the next level. But what is exactly Podcasting 20? Well, let me tell you, it is the evolution of podcasting. With Fountain, you are not just a listener, you’re an active participant who can earn money by engaging with your favorite shows. It is a game changer. Getting started is very simple. In the show notes, you will find the link to download the Fountain app. Once installed on your phone and your account is set up, search for newcomers on fire and hit the follow button.

45:29
Miguel Abascal
Don’t forget to do the same for.

45:30
Miguel Abascal
All your favorite shows. Now here is where it gets exciting. As you listen to our episodes, you will earn SATS, which is real money. Keep an eye on Fountain’s homepage for Promoted episode, where you can earn up to 100 SATS just for listening to newcomers on fire. When you like our episodes and you create a clip for a limited time, we will send you 200 SATS. And guess what? If the community likes them, you will receive even more. SADS. It’s amazing you can use the stats you have earned to send us a boost, which is like a mini payment with a message. We are super active and responsive and we make sure to respond to almost every boost we receive. Plus we give a shout out to our top boosters from previous episodes.

46:17
Miguel Abascal
If you are feeling extra generous, you can top up your Fountain wallet with a bank card or a lining transfer from a lining app. Supporting your favorite podcasters has never been this easy. The easiest way to learn is just to get started. If you have any trouble or questions, just go to support at Fountain. The team is amazing, extremely helpful and responsive. And that’s it. You are now fully equipped for Podcasting 20 on Fountain. Happy listening, engaging and earning sad.

46:49
Intro/Outro
We hope you enjoyed this show and that it helps you to find your way or make your way. If you found value, share it with someone who needs it. Until next time. To your success.